Following a recent lively discussion in the pub I've been trying to find out whether indeed Shrewsbury was ever in Wales. I've found out that it used to be the administrative Capital many years ago but I'm still searching for evidence of the former.

Many thanks for your help in attempting to put this issue to bed.

No Shrewsbury has never been in Wales, unless you go back before the settlement of the Shropshire area by the Saxons (and therefore before the creation of Mercia or England) but it is unclear whether Shrewsbury existed at this time or not.

As for this administrative capital business, I think this refers to the Welsh Marches (Shropshire, Herefordshire, etc) only and not to Wales. And the capital (where the Council of the Welsh Marcher lordships was held) moved about a bit, I think it was Ludlow for most of the time.

That is my understanding as well. Shrewsbury has never been part of Wales unless you count the fact that the town was briefly captured by the Welsh in 1215.

Yup it was that conquest, which was unbelievably embarrasing, which paved the way for the town walls as we know them today to be built.

Saying that, it's a shame that so much of the medieval town walls and their towers and gates have gone.

I remember it well. Luckily they'd all gone by teatime.

I remember a girl called Megan, welsh girl lived over the bridge, she was all over the map, looked a bit like a monkey!

If you go back as far as the Mercian period when England/Shropshire didn't exist then neither did Wales anyway, or not as an identifiable "nation" anyway - I use the quotes because Wales has never actually been a country as such, just "the bit on the left" which was later grabbed by Edward I and turned into a principality. So it's never actually been a nation, in the modern sense, although saying this tends to cause pub fights if it turns up in a trivia quiz :-).

The border between Wales and Shropshire has moved several times, of course. Llanymynech is not exactly your standard Saxon/English name, for example.

Not the best example to use though as Llanymynech is half in Wales!

But large areas of Clunshire and parts around Oswestry have a very Welsh feel to them and the villages have Welsh placenames.

And many Shropshire towns have Welsh names as well as their default English ones - Oswestry is Croesoswallt and Shrewsbury is Amwythig for examples.

The only time Shrewsbury is in wales is Bank hol weekends :lol: :lol:

Since I was talking about the border between Shropshire and Wales moving, Llanymynech seemed like a good example. I'm pretty sure they didn't draw a line through it when they created the border, y'know.

But having Welsh names isn't necessarily a reliable guide anyway; there's a number of other places in Shropshire and elsewhere that have Welsh names, but that's just because they're often (almost) literal translations of the English meaning. Or vice versa; Cardiff, for example, is not spelled like that in Welsh - it's the English version of the name. No-one claims Cardiff was once in England.

And just to be even more pedantic about this, I'll take it further and note that "Moscow" is actually an English translation, ironically awkward for some Russians to pronounce (no 'w' sound in Russian and no equivalent letter in Cyrllic). The actual name of the city, transliterated, is Moskva, with the 'o' being pronounced like the first letter of the word 'other'. It was just English traders being lazy that wanted a translation.

Whilst Shrewsbury's Welsh name is a translation of Shrewsbury (Amwythig means "fort in scrubland" which is what the old name for Shrewsbury meant too), there are loads of villages in Shropshire with a Welsh name and no English version! The areas with these places, such as the Oswestry, Chirbury and Clun areas, were once in Wales, but were transfered to Shropshire at some point.

However Shrewsbury, since its Saxon founding c. 800, has never been in Wales.

Wales and england as we know them did not exist but all these border areas were inhabited by ancient Britons. the anglo - saxons took the area and built offa's dyke to keep the Britons out. Then Shrewsbury was on the side that became england.

'Twas the kingdom of Mercia at the time. Offa's rather large hedge follows the old Mercian border.

On the naming question, Wikipedia says "Amwythig" means "fortified place" rather than "fort in scrubland" - it's the Saxon name "Scrobbesburh" which means "fort in scrubland", or so it claims. Or possibly "Scrobb's fort" - Wikipedia doesn't seem too sure. Perhaps it needs correcting by someone who knows Old Welsh better than me (although from memory of studies in Old English, I'd say "Scrobb's fort" was probably a better translation for the Saxon name).

Indeed.

These places mentioned by proud salopian were on the March, the no mans land created by the Norman. In 1536 Henry VIII brought one side ito England and the other into Wales. It was part of bringing his lawless realm to order. He strengthened the Council in the March which was based in the famous Council House by the castle entrance and put the tough Bishop Rowland Lee in charge of catching outlaws.

Not quite. The Acts (there were two) were in 1536 and 1543, and the Council of the Marches (to give it its proper name) was merely given a legal footing; it already had plenty of power. Rowland Lee became president in 1534, so he was already in charge by the time the acts were passed, going on cheery outlaw hunts.

All courtesy of an article in Wikipedia...

As such Shrewsbury & Shopshire were not tryly English or Welsh and during the Saxon Ages the Marches were constantly being invad3ed by one or the other, which is why there was a parliment called for, by I think it was King Edward which was held in Denbishire.
After that the council of the Marches was set up it was designed to rotate between England & Wales moving from Town to Town in the Marches so keeping the peace between the two countries.
Infact at one point while Engalnd was in turmoil the Council of the Marches totally ruled the area & also Wales.

Also the names of towns in Shropshire which seem Welsh to you and me, are realy Olde English, which changed when the German & French language was introduced when the Normans took control of the land.

I hope that my answer helps.

Joolz of Salopia

An interesting thread. Any chance of Shropshire moving over to Wales? :D

It seems to have been the capitol of the ancient Kingdom of Powys before it was conquered by the Anglo Saxons. Shrewsbury was known as Amwithig by the Romans but was PENGWERN to the British builders, reputed to mean' THE HILL OF ALDERS'. By the ninth century it was part of the kingdom of Mercia and the Anglo-Saxons had changed the name to Scrobbesbyrig, meaning 'town on the scrub-covered hill'.

Just a little bit of extra info from the Lives of the British Saints: vol 1 by Sabine Baring Gould and Fisher two authorities.

CADELL DEYRNLLWG IN POWYS
. Cadell became prince of Powys, with his seat at Shrewsbury. (Welsh PENGWERN-CITY OF ALDERS-Romans knew it as Amwythig means "fort in scrubland" )in consequence of a revolt of the Romano British and the Christian subjects of their Prince BENLLI against this chief who favoured Druidism.

Cadell was the grandfather of Brochwel Ysgrythog. The family died out in the male line in Cyngen, murdered on pilgrimage to Rome in 854AD. It produced several saints St TYSSILIO of Meifod.

Thank you. That's interesting.